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forumposter123@protonmail.com's avatar

We spend around 10% of GDP on the elderly. If you paid that out to every parent today it would be around $36,000 a year or ~$650,000 a kid by age 18. I think you intuitively understand this would easily trigger more births.

But what about…country X! They gave parents (some tiny X% of that) and it didn’t work! Yeah, because it’s some tiny X% of that! Not 100% of that or anything close!

But what about Hungary! Don’t they spend 5% of gdp or something!

Hungary has a bunch of tax breaks and government service subsidies for working moms that dump their kids in daycare and follow a very specific (ex soviet) life script that is in every other way anti-fertility. It provides basically nothing to anyone who doesn’t want to follow that life script. It provides no incentive to the husbands earnings despite being the #1 economic correlate to higher fertility (they have no concept of married filing jointly in Hungary).

In short you need to give people cash, preferably in the form of payroll tax breaks for married couples.

We already spend about half that 10% on kids, unfortunately we give it to the teachers union (and other government agents) rather than parents, so 50% of the problem can be solved without spending another dime just by giving parents control over the money.

The other 5% we just need to fix the funding mechanism for retirement benefits.

The structure of these retirement programs is such that they highly incentivize childlessness, because benefits get paid out regardless of whether you had the children to pay for them. In insurance terms, the costs of childbearing are the premiums and the benefits are the claims. There is a huge mismatch therefore between premiums and claims causing a classic insurance death spiral. No insurance regulator would allow such a structure to exist in the private market. I note that high fertility groups like the Amish actually get to avoid SS and Medicare taxes.

We aren’t going to fix this on the claims end. We can fix this in the premium end by raising payroll taxes on those with fewer children and lowering it in those with more. You simply recognize that if raising future taxpayers is a legitimate form of payroll tax contribution and price appropriately.

Once you eliminate the free riding problem people can live as they please. I hope they have more kids but if they don’t at least things are finally “fair”.

I strongly doubt that “neurotic UMC lib parenting” is the cause of fertility shortfall. I hate on neurotic UMC libs as much as the next guy, but I see lots of people who aren’t neurotic UMC libs struggle with raising a family even though they let them play in the street and don’t drag them to spelling bees.

It costs fucking money! Houses are expensive. Healthcare is expensive. Childcare is expensive. Your time is expensive. If you don’t like the public schools (we gave it a shot, we threw in the towel) then education is expensive!

I ran the math on what it costs to live in the house I grew up in on my dad’s salary. He could not afford it today! He let me play in the street with friends but that assumes you can afford to live on that street.

There are two people I see that oppose this:

1) cheapskates who want to continue free riding the system

2) masochistic people who want having lots of children to make them special and balk at the idea of making it any easier

Sorry, I can’t come up with any better reasons to defend the status quo here. If you don’t want to spend political capital on this issue fine, but what I see people spending political capital on seems a lot worse than tax breaks for parents.

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Wolverines!'s avatar

Once you get beyond three children, it becomes impossible to program their lives. That’s why large families tend toward natural R selection and why the most K selected types are the ones with only one or two children. It’s a serpent devouring its own tail. The fact we even have a conference like this is an indicator that we were being judged by God and found wanting.

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